Like most of you, I've been seeing the story on the news of the televangelists who are being investigated by the US Senate - 2 of which are right here in GA. If you haven't heard about it, you can read an article and watch the news report here.
When he was asked in an interview if he thought Jesus would drive a Rolls Royce, Creflo Dollar replied, "I believe He would."
Like it or not, that's one of the leading images our country has of church and its leaders. No wonder only 2 out of 10 households come to church.
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I find this matter disturbing and I am very disappointed in your response. I will not address the obvious political issues since I believe you are concerned with the church.
The truth is that what most people see is more bickering between churches. It is easy to jump on the bandwagon and criticize. It is much more difficult to look beyond the surface and see what common interests we have with other churches. I am sure the entire “Christian Community” does not agree with your behavior and beliefs 100%. From the outside looking in your church may be accused of similar behavior. I am not sure if you have any first hand experience with Dr. Dollars church other than television.
While I am not a theologian, I have seen a few of the results of his ministry. Thousands of African Americans attending church. They encourage families to stay together and individual responsibility. They have helped their immediate community by having job fairs and offering a school, counseling, helping the homeless, single parent families etc. They have reached out all over the world. Dr. Dollars ministry is effective in their community and their culture. They are culturally relevant, in their community. They make a positive difference in others lives. I am sure they would admit they are not perfect.
You have an opportunity to stand against this insane investigation, stand with a culture you don't fully understand and even perhaps agree with 90% of what they do and believe. What are you going to do when the senate decides they don't like your new building? or the songs you sing? What if they don't like the groups you help?
I don’t see Joel Osteen, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson or any other mainstream white evangelist on the list. Are they just good christian republicans? Or maybe they just believe exactly as the good senator does.
No one knows what Jesus would do if he came back today, but I do not believe he would encourage us to publicly rebuke one another to the point it is a turn off to non-christians. If we are going to rebuke one then lets rebuke all, including ourselves.
Jason, I think you can do better than this!
Thanks for the concern to help me do better. I'm positive that I need it most of the time. And I am right there with you concerning the results of other ministries, including Pastor Dollar's. Wherever and however the gospel gets preached, lives are changed for the better and people are led towards following Jesus - that's a great thing and I applaud it 100%. I never meant to hint otherwise. And if that's how I sounded, I'm deeply sorry.
What I was honestly trying to comment on was the way these kinds of things look in the eyes of the unchurched and how it, in turn, can hinder the mission of the church. I have no idea if the investigation is "insane" or not. But I'm pretty sure that it's not racially or politically motivated, as you described it, because the majority of the ministry leaders being investigated are white and the senator is a Democrat.
Here's what I do know. All of the ministries being investigated hold to a theology that teaches that God is obligated to provide material wealth, prosperity and physical healing to all who truly believe. Not only is that not biblical, but it gives unchurched people more reasons to not give Jesus and the church a chance. And that's really where my heart was when I first heard the story. I feel that the Rolls Royce comment coupled with the theology that goes with it, do not line up with scripture and do not help a skeptical world know the real Jesus.
You see, I do believe that we can know what Jesus would do in our day. He left us lots of evidence through the way He lived His life. It's just hard for me to fathom that a man who had "no place to lay His head" would drive a Rolls.
I certainly don't wish any of the good things these ministries are doing to stop because of all this. But I hate it when anything we say or do keeps people away from Jesus. And I am definitely included in that. We're all guilty of it at times. That's what my comment was about and I hope this clears it up a little for you.
Jason, I appreciate your answer. I believe your concern to be genuine and your concern for the church sincere.
In response to your comments I would like to offer the following.
To say that Senator Grassely’s investigation is not political is naive on your part and I will not address the political issue further. I believe the issue you are trying to address is the response the world would take vs. church.
I would like to attach a statement taken directly from Sen. Grassely’s website
“I have recently asked six media media-based ministries for information regarding expenses, executive compensation and amenities given to their executives. This has nothing to do with church doctrine. This has everything to do with the tax exemption of an organization. Is that tax exemption being used according to law, and is the money that's donated under the tax exemption being used for legitimate, non-profit purposes?
This is part of a long-standing priority of mine to make sure that tax-exempt organizations are accountable to their donors. Over the years, my investigations have led to some real reform in other non-profit organizations.
Whether it’s using a private jet, driving a Rolls Royce or Bentley, or installing a $23,000 commode, there is obviously money going down the toilet. As a Christian myself, and a person who believes in tithing, I feel I have a right to know where my money goes. If a person gets a tax deduction for a donation, the deduction and donation should be for a legitimate purpose.
My job as a member of the tax writing Senate Finance Committee is to make sure the tax code is upheld and to make sure tax breaks for charitable work donations are not abused. Andon-profit board independence is important. Family members shouldn’t be approving salaries for family members or themselves.
What I’m from the six ministries is some basic information on how they use their money. I won’t draw any conclusions until after they report back to me.”
http://grassley.senate.gov
I have also provided a link to his site for further review. Please read the entire statement as well as the letters he sent. It should make you squirm.
It is easy to look at another families house and criticize and condemn their looks, behavior or lifestyle. Perhaps their grass is too tall, maybe their paint is fading or the house is in disrepair. What if they do not follow the neighborhood association rules exactly? Maybe it is a non-traditional family? What if they educate their kids in different ways?
It is far more difficult to humble yourself, to try to see life through their eyes. To love them unconditionally.
It is time consuming to go help or understand that family, It is much quicker and more effective to just openly condemn them, critise them and isolate them even further.
Grace is the point. There is plenty to do without bashing one another. Jesus only turned over the tables in the temple. He did not use C4 explosives to destroy it.
What would happen in our world if the church focused on our common interests and beliefs, instead of constant bickering and open division?
I challenge you and your church to take the lead in this area.
Anonymous - I believe you are missing the point of the original blog. Jason was concerned addressing the valid concern of what those outside the church think about all this. He didn't openly critize these 6 ministries. The only thing you might see as critisim is his use of a statement that comes from Creflo. I don't believe anyone who has been around what World Changers has done in College Park isn't thankful for their positive impact. But positive impact in a community surely can't be the only criteria. And your statement about what is "relevants to that culture" isn't the whole story. These ministries have decided by chooseing to be on National TV to transcend any local culture. They have become statements to a world of non-christians of what all christians are like. They don't know about the good that is done in College Park, but they do know about the Rolls. They do know about the extravegant use of money for personal items. That they see. We (the church) are responsible for how they see us.
I know by now you've been able to make at least one follow-up comment, but I was really concerned by the tone of your post, as well as by the issue at hand.
When I followed the newslink in your post, I read a list of ministers who have spent a huge portion of their lives pastoring and teaching, several of whom I know enough about to have a healthy spiritual appreciation of, and all or most of whom (to the best of my knowledge) are considered spirit-filled.
I'm wondering if the investigation into their finances is as much about the surface issues as it is about spiritual ones, and wonder if this could be a spiritual attack against several very public and visible churches and ministers -- even if they're cleared of any wrongdoing, I think their names will be blackened in the public (non-Christian and Christian) sphere, and they may unjustly lose credibility after this.
--Also, as you stated, I'm concerned something like this can hurt the entire American Church.
However, I think the choice of the term "televangelists" to describe these ministers (while technically accurate, since all of them currently have t.v. ministries) has pretty negative connotations at this point in church history, and is automatically going to bring up negative associations in the minds of many of your readers (it did in mine, so I was surprised to read the names of some of the people you were referring to), which really doesn't seem to help different parts of the church band together to love one another.
Additionally, it seems doubtful that the reason 8 out of 10 families don't attend church is because they're suspicious of the way Christian churches spend money. The reasons are probably much more complex and derive from a number of reasons -- money may be an excuse people use a lot, but I think the heart issues involved are much deeper and have to do with the person's feelings and beliefs about God.
anonymous,
I find it difficult to understand how any one could preach about helping others and then pay $23,000 for something to poo in. According to the latest census the average salary in College Park is $24,528. Jesus was the original advocate for the poor. Not the wealthy. I think this idea of Jesus being an advocate for the wealthy and God rewarding us with material possessions is similar to portraits of Christ being depicted as having a white complexion. When a white guy is painting a picture of Jesus, he will probably paint Jesus white. When a wealthy man wants to justify their wasteful spending, they pretend it was a divine gift.
Adam...
Jesus was and is the original advocate for human beings, wealthy or not. He is the advocate for everyone, whether they are willing to come to him or not.
And I don't think a person can look at a church's funds just in the sense of pure numbers. True, we can raise eyebrows at how a church has decided to spend its money, but I believe we can never know about the interior issues that contribute to a church making certain decisions. We may not understand the vision of what God may dream over a church body. We may even disagree with it, even if it seems blatantly obvious that the church and its leadership are fleecing their members and making bad decisions. But my point is, we don't know the intricacies of the pastor's (or church leadership) heart and what is going on between that individual or individuals and God.
I don't know the details of the church you might be talking about, but perhaps their was a need to spend that amount of money for something to "poo in". Sanitation is a necessity. So this might be a possibility, right?
One could approach Community Christian and Chapter 2 with the same perspective. I have friends that bawk at the idea of a church spending 6 million on new facilities, but I wonder if they stop to consider that God cast a vision over CCC and its leadership and communicated to them that these facilities are what is needed for this specific area. Sure, it may not be the best match for a city or town that has a low poverty level, but in a city that is mostly suburbia, perhaps this vision will be a great tool for Newnan.
I believe that God wants the best for His people. This may come in the form of material possessions. It may not. Different people have different needs. God may give a person wealth, and likewise, this person may use his or wealth to serve the Kingdom of God. People have a knee-jerk reaction to what is referred to as Prosperity Gospel, and often misinterpret pastors who tell their congregations that God wants to take care of them. These messages are spun into accusations of what could be labeled as materialism. Often, this is not even what is being preached. God wants to provide necessities to His people so they can do His work. Our God is a generous God, and is also known to give His people more than they will ever want or need. God wants the best for us, and what is best may be misunderstood by human eyes and hearts, but to Him, what he chooses to give forth is given strategically and makes perfect sense.
End rant.
I will agree that Jesus is an advocate for all, but the Bible shows us that the poor have a special place in the heart of our God.
"Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours" Luke 6:20
I would have to argue that you can look at a Church's funds in a term of numbers. To an extent. Obviously we cannot know the heart of anyone, but as we have been taught during this series at CCC our hearts follow our money. When we spend recklessly our hearts follow. I will apologise though, I wrongly attributed the $23,000 toilet to Crelo Dollar. The $23,000 marble topped antique commode was purchased by Joyce Meyers. I just find it sad. Like I had mentioned in my previous post, the average salary in College Park is $24,528. The cost of a Rolls Royce Phantom is $333,350. Mr. Dollar has 2. Apparently one he purchased himself and the other was a gift from the church. That amounts to nearly the average salary for 30 people in that area of the state. I haven't even addressed the three private jets, a million-dollar home in Fayetteville, and a $2.5 million apartment in Manhattan.
There are many verses that we can look to and see that the teachings of "Prosperity Gospel" are contradictory to the word of God.
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (NIV, Matthew 6:19-21)
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Luke 12:33-34)
Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain (1Timothy 3:8)
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you(Hebrews 13:5)
Now take a look at a quote from Mr. Dollar "without a doubt, my life is not average. But I'd like to say, just because it is excessive doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong."
— The Rev. Creflo Dollar\
If we are to use the logic Mr. Dollar and these other televangelists use it would only make one wonder if God is punishing those who are not successful.
I think there is nothing wrong with a Church expanding to meet the needs of their community. I am not criticizing these leaders for wanting to improve their facilities, or find other ways to reach seekers. What I find disturbing is the waste. I don't think anyone could reasonable explain to me how a toilet, car, jet, and fancy home helps reach seekers of Christ. I think the biggest problem is that people are misinterpreting the bible to justify greed. When the Bible speaks of followers being rewarded, and having treasure the Bible is typically referring to spiritual rewards and treasure in heaven.\
adam
Adam...
Fair enough.
That beatitude about the poor is just one of many conditions mentioned by Jesus before the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus' point is not to glorify being poor, or being in mourning, or being hungry, or being persecuted. He's simply saying that no matter what a person's condition is, that person can still interface and access Jesus. Everyone has access to the Kingdom of God, no matter what spiritual, mental, or physical condition they find themselves in.
Prosperity Gospel is not about hoarding. It's believing that God wants a person to have necessities, like food on the table or shoes on the feet. Once it's spun into a gospel of greed, then yes, there are many biblical passages denouncing it. I agree, following Jesus is about trusting God to meet our needs. It's about abandoning the pattern of the world and trusting our Father that our necessities will be met.
I agree with you about the waste and excess. Leaders are supposed to set examples. Unfortunately, people, especially leaders, are still fallible. They may have good intentions and good hearts, but they are still susceptible to making mistakes along the way. And they are culpable for their sins, just like everyone else.
I don't say this to justify their spending. Far from it. I just think sometimes we need to be reminded that people are still people. Sometimes they mess up. We should be able to look at the fruit of these people and these ministries and be able to discern if they are bringing more and more people to Jesus.
I mean, we could pull up someone's financial records and question why they spent so much money on an antique toilet or a fancy car or home. But isn't it the same as trying to hold someone accountable for their struggles with sin? We should be careful not to judge when we should merely be trying to correct.
It's not uncommon for people to own aircraft. A few big ministries have
jets. Some leaders do travel excessively and have ministries in
multiple countries. Why couldn't they just fly first-class or coach like other traveling professionals? I don't know. Maybe it's excess. Maybe it's a generous gift from God to meet the need to travel.
Consider John 21. The disciples were despondent after Jesus' death and a few of them returned to fishing (one could argue they were settling into old habits or settling for their old life). Jesus appeared on the shore, but at the time, no one recognized him. He asked them if they caught anything for breakfast and they said, "No."
Jesus suggested they cast the net on the other side of the boat. All of a sudden, there were so many fish in it they couldn't pull it in. At or around that moment, John realized that this person on shore was Jesus.
In the net were 153 fish. And John even mentions, "with all those fish, the net didn't rip."
I read John 21 and believe that God is a generous God. I mean, I don't know about the structure of fishing nets that were constructed during that time, but the language in the passage seems to indicate that that net should have ripped.
I believe God can be supernaturally generous.
And because we are His children, our call is to be generous as well. In giving and forgiveness.
Let me say that I love the discussion. But I think we are off track in making it about something that the original post wasn't about. Jason talked about this being a black eye for the church. The idea from some here seems to be that if we point out a brother in Christ who makes a mistake that we are doing something wrong. That Jason shouldn't point out the people who aren't in the church see this as typical of pastors. Whether or not these ministries have done good is not the point. I think they all have done good. But the church can do better than this. Pastors should be held to a higher standard than people who are in other professional fields. Ministries shoudl be held to more accountablity than those in business. Pointing out that this kind of excess may be part of why people want nothing to do with the church seems to be a worthwile discussion and one that is overdue.
I have to agree with John. I don't think anyone has made the argument that these ministries have not done good works. But that is beside the point. From Mr. Dollar's own admission, he lives a life of excess. This goes against Biblical teachings. I would like to address something from Terrell's post; God is generous. But there is a big difference between taking those 153 fish and using what God blessed them with to feed the hungry than to take those fish and sell to make a profit.
Adam I actually don't think God is against profit. But the point you were making that God is against excess is clear in the scripture. Read almost anywhere in the book of Proverbs or any of the prophets to see God's love for the poor. In addition to how he speaks of the rich living a life of excess while turning away from the poor. Oh want another black eye for the church - 80 year old Bishop Earl Paulk another Atanta megachurch is in another sexual scandal
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/sex-scandal-rocks-famed-megachurch/20071119180409990001
Its sad. You have people that are in a position to do some many great things and it gets wasted. Mr. Paulk may have done wonderful things through his life. But im sure things of this nature will definately keep people away from the Church.
I just wanted to say to everyone here that I'm really enjoying the discussion. All of you are raising some great points.
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